Why Couples Fight About Money (It's Not What You Think) EP - 24

SPEAKER_02 0:00

What if the biggest money arguments in your relationship have nothing to do with money? Maybe you've had the fight. The Amazon package, the credit card bill, the expensive dinner, the vacation, the daily coffee, the lunch that somehow turned into a two-hour argument. And on the surface, it looks like you're fighting about spending. But what if you're not? What if one person is fighting for security while the other person is fighting for freedom? What if one person is trying to feel safe while the other person is trying to feel alive? Because one of the biggest realizations we've had recently is this. Most money fights aren't about dollars. They're about fear. They're about identity. They're about childhood. They're about beliefs we inherited long before we ever met our partner. And when those beliefs collide, it can feel like you're speaking two completely different languages. And that's why we want to have a conversation about why couples fight about money, what those fights are really about, and the surprising realization that changed how we see each other after over 16 years together.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Today we're talking about one of the most emotionally charged topics in any relationship: money. Not because money itself is emotional, but because of everything attached to it. Money touches safety, freedom, control, success, self-worth, family, fear, identity. And the truth is, most people think they're arguing about spending habits. But what they're actually arguing about are the meanings they've attached to money. Because before you ever share the bank account, before you ever paid a bill together, before you ever discussed the budget, you already had a relationship with money. You learned it from your family, you learned it from your experiences, you learned it from your struggles. And most of those lessons were never consciously chosen. They were absorbed. And then one day you brought those beliefs into a relationship with someone who learned something completely different. And that's where the conflict begins. So let's talk about it. So money is never just about money. Most money arguments seem practical, but underneath them is emotion. So spending money versus saving, debt versus security, risk versus stability, enjoying today, which is me. Sure is versus preparing for tomorrow. Right. So the purchase isn't the argument, Kim. I know we talked about this uh when I buy something, right? And you get upset. Yes. Like I'm the spender.

SPEAKER_02 2:38

Yes, you are the spender and I'm the saver.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Right. So I buy, let's say I go to Amazon and I buy something, and then you see it. It shows up. What's your first reaction?

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Annoyed.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

You get annoyed.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Aggravated.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Well, there but there's several different reasons for that. But you know, like one person sees like, why did you buy that? And the other hears, like, why are you trying to control me? Which I think is what you feel, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

So yeah, we're gonna dive deeper into these uh money issues between couples because the purchase isn't the argument, it's the meaning attached to the purchase. Right? So you feel like I said, I buy something, you feel betrayed.

SPEAKER_03 3:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:22

I can only imagine how many more things go through your head. But is he really gonna use that? What the heck is it?

SPEAKER_02 3:28

Most of the time the answer is no. You don't really use it. You know, you buy shit and we have to throw it out.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

And so I'm the spender, you are the saver. I see a more like I just wanna buy it, I just wanna enjoy it, I need it. But what goes in your head?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Well, several things. There's a sense of betrayal. I feel like that you didn't discuss it with me first because I am very forthcoming and open with you about everything I do because I'm more of the person who needs permission to buy things almost. Like I don't like to spend money without discussing it first.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Right.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

And it could be anything, like even if it's a pedicure. Like, I need you to tell me, like, yeah, Sonny, go enjoy a pedicure. Like that makes me feel good. And then anger, I feel anger because I'm like, why is he spending money on that? We don't need it. It's a piece of crap, or you know, whatever it is, something that's gonna sit in the closet, or a book that I think that you won't read, or you know, stuff like that. And I so I get angry, and I get angry because a set a piece of my security has been taken away. I I'm like the one who does most of the finances, and we do them together, but mostly I handle it setting up the payments and just making sure there's enough in the account, that type of thing. And so I I have it in my mind what we need there to pay the bills, you know, and then I see a purchase come in and I'm like, well, I wasn't expecting that, and now I need to kind of rearrange what I had thought. Like it takes a lot of room in my brain to plan for those things. And then I it's like stuff I don't want to think about. So now I have to like rethink it. So that's why I get aggravated.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Yeah, and I understand. So money isn't emotional because of the dollars amount, it's emotional because of what those dollars represent. Yeah, and all of a sudden there's like a 30 bucks, like what happened? Yeah, you blew it. Yeah, so and I don't see it as I'm doing something wrong, but because again, I just saw it, I bought it. You know, my brain doesn't really click to like oh, I have to save the money. I just go more like, oh, I like it, I want it, and I just want to enjoy the things. All this stems from the money stories we inherited.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Yes, the money beliefs and where they come from. You know, I grew up with a lot of scarcity. My parents were divorced. My mother was a single mother with two kids. She, her parents grew up, you know, during the depression. So she was always in like save, save, save mode and don't spend. And she definitely passed that down to us. And also being a single mom, she didn't have a lot of money. She relied on my dad who paid child support every month, but we all know that never really cuts it, right? And she would always be like, get the check from your dad while you're there visiting him and stuff like that. And I would always see the money. So I oh I was always like aware of how much money she was getting. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

It's funny how people back then used to do that to the kids. Yeah. Because I had a similar story.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yes, I know. Yeah. Right. And so there was always financial stress. She was constantly worried about money, you could tell. So I grew up with this sense of scarcity.

SPEAKER_03 6:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

And she was always a really hard worker. And then she met this man when I was like eight or nine years old, whatever, and they started a business. And when you're starting a business, of course, like there's no money coming in right away. For yeah, it was a lot of sacrifice. And of course, I was, you know, well, we all had to sacrifice. And they taught me how hard they had to work for money and all the sacrifice that went along with it, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

And so that's always been my belief growing up is like making money is hard. Always the beliefs that they implanted in my brain, money is hard to make, money doesn't grow on trees. Those are always what I heard when I was growing up. When I was younger, I did start spending more money. I wasn't good with money because I was never really taught. So I had this like hyper independence from a very young age. You know, at 16, I was paying like a car payment, my own insurance. Then I started paying my own cell phone bill. And then my at 18, by 18, I moved out. I had my own apartment, all my own bills, my own medical insurance. I was paying for everything. I was very hyper independent, but I didn't, you know, make enough. And so I started spending and got into some financial troubles. And my mom kind of helped me and manage that and untangle it and everything.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

And then But she taught you that you have to work hard.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Yeah, that's the bottom line.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

So you have to really work, work, work because money doesn't grow in trees.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

So after I learned that, like the first time when I got into like a little bit of, you know, overspending, she helped me get out of it. I learned like very quickly that I didn't want to go into that position again.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

And so from then on, I kind of became like a a saver. However, you know, looking back, it doesn't seem like I'm a saver because we've always just been investing in businesses. But we've always kind of had this struggle around finances. But the truth is it's not like we're out buying all these grandiose things. The truth is we've just always invested in investments or businesses and stuff like that. And unfortunately, they haven't all worked out.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

So now that you're saying it out loud, Kim, if you I can see now the whole picture, your mom was struggling with money when you were little. She was always saying, Hey, money's hard to make. You have to work hard to get money.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Yeah. I heard that from both sides, my dad also.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

But she was also willing to take a risk on a business because she wanted to have money and she wanted to be independent and you know, all the things that a business could provide you.

SPEAKER_02 9:39

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

And now that you're going through the whole your whole childhood, you are basically doing the same.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

Oh, I know.

SPEAKER_00 9:46

You are uh I have to work hard to get money, and I have to start my business. I need to get my business. So all she passed that, she passed that down to you.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Right.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

And her dad passed the same down to her. So Yeah, so he had a business as well.

SPEAKER_00 10:02

We inherited this um money beliefs and and how we just perceive finances and how we perceive ourselves, how we get up in the morning, how we see the world, and how we're just gonna get the money today.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

Yeah. Well, she yeah. Sh I saw her and my stepdad working a minimum of 12 hours a day. And it was usually like Monday through Sunday. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

And then you saw that, like, oh yeah, that's how it is.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

I saw that and I was like, that's just how it is. And so that's what I do, you know. Like I can't sit still. I'm always have to be working on something. And if I am doing something other than work, I feel guilt.

SPEAKER_03 10:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

I can't be doing nothing. Like you want to go and go do something and enjoy the time. And and I a hundred percent agree. And that's where we balance each other out. I understand that I am the way I am and why I am that way. And I understand that it's not good, it's not sustainable, it's not a good way to live, it's not enjoying your life, it's not enjoying time with our kids when they're, you know, in their prime years for us to enjoy them. Right. So I do understand the error of my ways. So I'm glad for that balance now. Right. But your story, since we're opposites, your story is similar in a lot of ways, but very different.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Right. When I was a kid, my father I wasn't living with my mom. I remember that my mom was basically doing the same that your mom was doing. I go call your dad, ask for money. Your dad have to give you the money.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

I remember picking up the phone, calling my dad. You know? My mom ended up in Colombia, I don't know how it's called. It's called like it's like a child support type.

SPEAKER_03 11:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

So that the money gets seducted automatically. You know, child support, right? So my dad was very upset when that happened because he was a lawyer and then he was like, I cannot have this in my record. Yeah. It just seems bad, right? My mom will have to go pick up the checks to the government agencies or some shit like that, where they basically have a check, they cut the check for you. You know? And then and it's funny because now that I'm thinking about it, my dad was surrounded by those offices in the government.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Right. I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

So it's basically like the check was going next door.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:18

You know?

SPEAKER_02 12:19

And at some point for my dad was like, nope, I don't need to put this in the mail. Can you just run this across exactly?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

So it was very, very upsetting that my mom put me into like again calling my dad and all that.

SPEAKER_02 12:30

Well, yours is I just want to clarify this. Yours, you know, like your situation was different in in that regard because your mom was kind of putting you in the middle of it. My I was like, you know, like my dad would hand me the check to give to my mom. He I wasn't begging for it or anything like that. Like it was my dad always paid child support. I'm not saying he didn't. He he always, always did. It was just like I was just the messenger, the delivery person. It wasn't like, but I my point was I always saw the money going back and forth. So I was like, oh, he pays my mom X amount of dollars every month or whatever. But yours was more like almost like your mom kind of put you in a position to, you know, my mom was kind of asked for it.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

My mom was hurt. My mom wanted to kind of pass him some guilt.

SPEAKER_03 13:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:17

Like he is your child, you know, and where the heck are you? Yeah. You know?

SPEAKER_02 13:23

And then because your relationship was, I think, just kind of dig into a little bit. Like your relationship was strained with your dad. My mine wasn't like my dad. We went with my dad twice a week, was our thing. Every Thursday and Sunday, we were with my dad, but you had more of a strained relationship, whereas your dad had started a whole new family.

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Yeah, my new family, and then the wife didn't like us at all. You and your sister. Yeah, my yes, me and my sister. But then my mom just kind of passed on to me this kind of sense of entitlement. Like, oh your mom ha your dad have money. Yeah. You deserve the money. It's your money. Yeah. She always like made it sound like that. It's like a no second thoughts or like, nope, it's your money. Where's your money? Where's your son's money?

SPEAKER_03 14:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:13

You know? Yeah. And then so I have this kind of you know, entitlement per se, from you know, even though I wasn't living with my dad. And then my mom was like, Well, you're a lawyer, you're making money, where's my money?

SPEAKER_03 14:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:28

You know, just like that.

SPEAKER_03 14:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

I don't even know how to describe it. Again, that was in the early 90s.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

Uh probably late 80s. So the the money brought drama into my life, but also brought entitlement. And then I kind of saw it that the money will come to me somehow because my mom kind of put that in my head that we're gonna get the check.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Yeah. Well, you know what I mean? So you didn't really dig into that, but you felt this pressure, like you felt like you were in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

I was in the middle, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

And you always felt like kind of resentful against your mom for putting you in that position.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

That position, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

And then you felt this sadness and hurt and anger towards your dad. Exactly. Because he wasn't just more forthcoming with the money and just like, oh, this is my responsibility. Let me take care of it. It was like you felt like you were like begging for money.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Begging for money, like what?

SPEAKER_02 15:28

And you're a proud guy and not into that.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

No, no, like my dad doesn't. So it was like this conflict. Yeah. Why am I asking my dad for money? Right. You know what I mean? And I think that one of the last days uh when I was going to college, one of the things that I will never forget was I remember asking him that I'm going to the campus. And so I need the money to go to the campus.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

To pay for school.

SPEAKER_00 15:50

To pay for school, yeah. And have some money for the first month or so. He said, Okay, I have the money right now. Come to pick it up right now, or I will spend it.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

And that made me so angry.

SPEAKER_03 16:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Like I won't ever, ever tell to my kid.

SPEAKER_03 16:04

No.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

If you don't show up right now, I want to spend it. Like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Am I like a a friend or like a It's like a pawn in a game. Like he's playing you. Like you don't talk to your kid like that.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

Can you imagine? And I I didn't like that at all.

SPEAKER_02 16:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

When he said that.

SPEAKER_02 16:20

What did you do? Did you pick it up?

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yeah, I went to pick it up. He gave me a huge chunk of cash. He gave me a lot of cash. Like a thousand bucks back then, something like that or more. Um yeah, and then I went to college. Like, oh fuck it, I'm leaving anyways. You know. But I never I wasn't taught anything about money. I was always into investments. Mm-hmm. To invest in companies in the stock market. I don't even remember how I got into. Um I was really young, maybe 17, 16, when I get started getting into. But no one taught me anything about investments. No one taught me anything about that you have to you have to work hard for money. Because even my dad made it look like it was easy to make money. He was a lawyer, he would show up to the office and at 9 a.m. Right. He would go to lunch at 12, go to his house, take a nap, and then goes back to the office at 2 o'clock, and then by 4, 4 30, he's gone. He was working like what, four or five hours a week, a day.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

And I remember that his boss was okay with it.

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

You know, because he kind of knew the in and outs of the company back then. So my his boss was like that could have said I'm I'm busy with a case. Open quote. And he's and he's just fucking taking a nap or drinking. He's in a fucking drinking. He was a big drinker.

SPEAKER_03 17:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

And he would go, my dad was one of those that would go somewhere, let's say to a bar or something, and then he will say a round for everybody.

SPEAKER_03 17:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

He would buy rounds for everybody. You know, he was just lavish. Mm-hmm. You know?

SPEAKER_02 18:02

Except with his own children.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

He would be just, yep, I'll pay the bill. Give me the bill.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

Because he likes sounds like I've never met him, of course, because you guys have a strained relationship, but it sounds like he is like to throw his weight around or like, you know, he's very showy. What's the word I'm looking for?

SPEAKER_00 18:20

No, he pretends that he doesn't have the money, but then all of a sudden you're like, well, you know, I gotta wait for this case to pay me or whatever to get the check. There's always like a wait, right? Always the deal to go through, right? Well, anyway, so my dad would just go and and he he would make it sound like, okay, the money, the check is coming, or the deal is gonna go through, and all of a sudden two days after he's blowing crazy money or something, and I'm just like, I thought you said that we're gonna wait it out like a week or two or the next month, and all of a sudden, like it was always a game. It was always a game because he didn't want to pay what he needed to. My mom always knew, and we knew that he'd always would just kinda, you know, he was just giving us scraps. Yeah, he wasn't even paying what he needed to pay us and give us, you know, what we deserved back then.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

And then your mom, on the other hand, is like, you know, big open heart, can't doesn't hold on to money. She just wants to give it all away to her. Whoever needs something or wants something, she just buys them or gives them money and buys them gifts, and she just saved it right there.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Yeah, my mom will just I will ask my mom for something and we'll shoot she wouldn't she won't ever say no.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

She will find a way to get it to me. I never really asked for crazy shit, but you know, like we parents sometimes no, that's too expensive. My mom will be just like just spend it, buy it, and she's not a saver. No. You know? Uh, and I think all those things are mold us or molt me, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:56

So the lesson that kind of came from your dad though, it wasn't like money creates security, it was more like money creates conflict.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

The lesson from your mom is more Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Money will come.

SPEAKER_02 20:10

Money will come and you're entitled to it. Because she knew your dad had all this money, so you're entitled to it, and that's tomorrow's problem.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

That's tomorrow. Exactly. That's tomorrow's problem. She was stressed out, you know, but again, I think now that I'm putting it together, she put herself in the position. We all do.

SPEAKER_03 20:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

You know, it's it we all have a life, we all have the opportunities, we all make decisions, and every decision is gonna have a cost, right? Every decision is gonna have a bill at the beginning or at the end. Right. So but now she was and still, she is like she still tells me I will never have money again because if I have it, I will just give it all away. Yeah. And she basically did part of her, you know, her entire life. That's how she's been.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

You know.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

And so when we're going into a relationship, we all have these expectations, right, about how our what we're going to expect from our partner.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Before you go deeper, you meet this guy or this girl, you have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

You have no idea what that person is bringing. And it's and even if the person have money or have no money, there is a trait. Right, there is something hidden that was inherited from from his childhood or her childhood.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yep. These beliefs.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

And most people never discuss them.

SPEAKER_02 21:30

Well, a lot of people don't discuss them, but even if you do discuss them, people aren't aware. They're not aware. They're not aware. I didn't know that my money hang ups until just two years ago when I started digging into this. I didn't know that my underlying belief about money is that money is hard to make and it's money is hard to come by. Yeah. Money doesn't grow on trees. Money doesn't um just takes hard continuous work. I didn't know that that was my underlying belief. Belief. So I didn't know that that's what was fueling my life and how I lived my life. Right. I didn't understand that.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

Right. For those that are listening, they may think, yeah, but that's the only way to make money. If you believe that you have to work hard for money, that's your belief and that's your life.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

That will be And I'm not saying that you if you're like sitting on the couch watching Netflix and you're gonna get rich. No, that's not gonna happen either.

SPEAKER_02 22:23

These unwritten rules that we have, these unwritten beliefs, right? We carry them into a relationship. And when you and I met, I it was all, you know, butterflies in the stomach. I was just head over heels right away. It was just, you know, I was just looking for, I wasn't looking for money, I was just looking for the right partner, right, that I could build and grow with and somebody who had an open mind like I did about different things. So it took a it took a while for us to even have any money conversations. I'm talking like a couple years, which I don't recommend, by the way. I do recommend having that conversation way before.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

But if you're planning to if you're planning a life with that person, yeah, yeah, you're that the conversation is to take uh taking place.

SPEAKER_03 23:12

Yeah, uh for sure.

SPEAKER_00 23:13

But people skip that because they there's some sort of insecurity or like, oh well, this guy's gonna think that it's all about money.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

But if you're building something in my case, I I didn't this in this particular case, I had already been I was going through a divorce and like I already knew what my ex brought to the table, and that wasn't what fulfilled me. And I knew what I was looking for as far as wanting to build a life and a business and you know the open mind that I was talking about. Like I was looking for those specific things. I wasn't looking for somebody to come in with this huge bank account and sweep me off my feet. Would have been nice, but it didn't happen that way, and I that's not what I was looking for. So I did wonder and ponder that many times. I remember before we ever had the conversation, like, oh, I wonder what you know his financial situation is, because I really didn't know in the beginning. And I remember like a few friends had asked me, I'm like, I have no idea. And they're like, Kim, why aren't you having those important conversations? This is like two years in or something. But we had a lot of other things going on, issues that we had to overcome first before that was even relevant.

SPEAKER_01 24:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

So the kind of unwritten rules that we never really discussed was like my expectations were that we would both work, we would both contribute, we both plan, we both save. And I think your expectations were a little bit different. Your yours is like family helps family, and money comes and goes, and we'll figure it out, and you know, everything works out eventually, and like that's tomorrow's problem. And yeah, like that's kind of your mentality about it. And you know, nobody's wrong, of course, like but it is a struggle for one person to come to terms with somebody else's beliefs and spending habits.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

Yeah, like you said, nobody was wrong, but nobody was speaking. So you and I we weren't speaking the same language either.

SPEAKER_02 25:10

No.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

You know, literally.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Literally.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

Right. Yeah. Kim, and there there are so many couples right now that they have like a these differences and beliefs about money. And they are in a relationship, they love each other, they have fun, and they don't even know how to address the issue.

SPEAKER_02 25:31

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

There is like a this hidden battle, right, that is making the guy feel miserable somehow, you know, so in some ways, and the girl feeling also miserable because there are differences. And they can even even just planning to talk about this topic, talk about money, creates a huge fight.

SPEAKER_03 25:53

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

To the point that could make you see everything that it's not gonna work out.

SPEAKER_03 25:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

You see so many red flags and a lot of people just dismiss those red flags.

SPEAKER_02 26:04

Well, a lot of for years you and I were very much at odds about this, and it caused like a lot of friction and conflict between us, where at some points I'm sure you and I were both ready to quit, you know, over the years.

SPEAKER_03 26:18

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

We balance each other out, and I think that that can be true for a lot of couples. I don't think they see it that way until they understand each other's, you know, underlying beliefs and stories about money. I don't think that that's on the surface, but like, for example, like you and I we'll get into like the types of money identities, but the resentment often grows inside expectations that were never communicated. And I think that's a huge problem, is like I said, that couples don't communicate about these things and they don't even know how to communicate about them because they're just these underlying beliefs that we're not even always aware of.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

But that's why communication is so important, kind of digging into your own personal money stories.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Even for us, Kim, when we were putting this episode together as we were navigating it and I started reading it, we thought, shit, we're gonna fight.

SPEAKER_02 27:16

Yeah, I know. I said, Are you when we're getting ready to court? I said, Are you ready to argue?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

It's going it's going deep. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Well, yeah, we're about to get into more of it, which we'll we still may argue, we don't know yet. Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:30

We were prepping, you know, the the topics and and and the beliefs and and how I was raised and how you were raised and how we handle money, you know, and and it just gets you right away. So I can only imagine how many people out there, again, they're together and someone buys something at Amazon, the package arrives, someone is in the in the living room trying to save money, and the other person is just happy to go to go pick it up the package.

SPEAKER_02 28:01

Well, I mean you could use our example when you were working a full-time job, you were all the time, like so many times per week, out buying lunch. And of course, like who doesn't love to go out to lunch and buy lunch? I I would love that. I would love to just go buy somebody, have somebody make me a sandwich or a salad or whatever. But I am on the other end and I'm at home working from home and I'm like, okay, well, I gotta get scrappy here, I gotta get in save mode, and I gotta make my lunch every day. I gotta make some salads, some sandwiches, some scrambled eggs, leftovers, whatever. And I'm thinking I'm I'm here, I'm sacrificing for the family, I'm taking one for the team, I'm eating it just to eat it and move on with my day. Meanwhile, Ken, you're at work going out to lunch with people and buying lunch all the time. And I see all these charges like every day, every day, every day. Like Chiba Hut. I don't know, where else do you go? Fernando's taco shop. I don't know. Where what are they called? Matios. Matios? I don't remember that one. Matios. Anyways, I see these charges day after day after day, and I kept saying for years this went on. And you're talking like a few hundred dollars per month by the end of the month, right? And so I'm like, of course, like resentful. Like he gets to go out and have all these great meals every day, and I'm home eating the crap. And you kept saying, Well, like, if you want to go out to lunch, go out to lunch. And I'm like, Of course I want to go out to lunch, but I don't want to spend the money to go out to lunch. And so you're out spending the money, and I just have to sacrifice my my health by eating the crap and my sanity, and I'm not enjoying it. I don't I'm I'm not enjoying what I'm eating, you know? And so that became like this huge argument ongoing for years where I would just have to like let it go. But so it just causes all this resentment.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

And so I feel like I sacrificed and I didn't feel like it was fair, and I felt like, you know, you were not being responsible. I feel like you were not contributing like to the security of our family.

SPEAKER_03 30:20

Right.

SPEAKER_02 30:20

And then you're willy-nilly, like, well, I should just be able to buy what I buy because I work hard and I deserve it. And don't, you know, your argument was like, stop like managing me and stop controlling me, and I just want to enjoy my life and I don't want to plan lunches.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

And that's tomorrow's problem kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

I realized that again when we were putting the episode together that, you know, like, oh wow, so I would just I'm always busy at work, lunchtime, I'll just go and get my lunch, go back, right?

SPEAKER_02 30:53

No, I get it. I understand the convenience of it.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Yeah, sometimes you think, oh man, I don't want to spend 15 bucks on a meal or whatever. You know? But then after a while, you just kind of becomes a norm, right? And again, because my beliefs of freedom or reward, enjoyment, my beliefs are embedded in me. Like, okay, it's fine. Man, it's no big deal.

SPEAKER_02 31:17

It's just a s I just got a sandwich, Chem. Like I or you don't even like sandwiches, but like I just got a burrito from Chipotle Cam. It's not a big deal. It's just one Chipotle order. Um whatever.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Yeah, so the same purchase has a completely different meaning, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Right. Two people can experience the exact same situation and be fighting two completely different battles. And that's why most of the money fights never even get resolved.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

No, yeah, because it wasn't even about, again, like the burrito, it's just the fact, right? The fact. Yeah. And in my case, it's just like a yeah, but it's just today. Right. It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

It's just a burrito.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

It's a burrito. Move on.

SPEAKER_02 31:57

But and so really there's what it comes down to is there's four different money identities. You have the security seeker, right? And that's me in this case. Money where money equals safety. You have the freedom seeker, which is Ken. Money equals possibility. You have the provider, where money equals worth. The protector, money equals responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

Most people are a combination of the four money identities. And most couples are actually the opposites of each other. And that's not by accident. And that's kind of what I was saying to you.

SPEAKER_00 32:36

That would compliment each other.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

That we compliment each other.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:39

And that's not by accident. And in our case, it's a necessity. Right. We wouldn't neither of us would be fulfilled without the other person's money identities.

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Because you make me go outside of my comfort zone and spend a little more on experiences. Uh you make me spend more money than I'm comfortable with on experiences. Like you'll pressure me to, you know, take the kids away for the weekend or get a cabin or go on vacation or whatever it is. Or like go shopping here and there, stuff. Like nothing extravagant, of course. But like, and then I kind of reel you in and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, we need to save money for this or spend it on this, and this is what we have coming up. Like, I'm the planner. Whereas you're like willy-nilly, like, oh, no plan. Like, that's tomorrow's problem. Yeah. And I'm very much the planner telling you, slow down before you plan that vacation that we desperately need and want. Yeah. This is what we have coming up.

unknown 33:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

But underneath all of these identities that you just said, there's an even deeper divide. We have different thoughts, different mindsets about money. Scarcity versus abundance. Right. So the scarcity asks, what if we run out?

SPEAKER_02 34:01

That's me.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

And then I say, what if it works out?

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Yeah, that's the abundance mindset. Whereas, you know, you were saying, like, comes from your entitlement, like your mom always made you feel like you're entitled to your dad's money. And that's where your entitlement comes in. But mine is like fear, like from my single mom, like, oh my god, we don't have enough, and I can't buy gas, and we gotta I gotta get food on the table. And that's where mindset my mindset comes from, and yours is coming from the opposite.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Yeah, yeah, but both have strength, but both have blind spots. The scarcity protects, try to protect. Yeah. Too much scarcity creates fear, too much abundance creates recklessness. So neither mindset is the answer by itself. The magic is in the balance.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Exactly. And again, that's why we need each other to kind of balance each other out. And that's what led to the biggest realization that we've had. Because actually, Ken, like you didn't even realize your beliefs about money until yesterday when we were planning this episode. I've been digging into my money beliefs for the past couple years and trying to eradicate them and change them and fix them. And I've been pushing you a little bit over the past two years because now that I realize that it's a problem and that we all have these underlying money beliefs, I wanted you to do the same so that could propel us forward together as a couple, as a family. And so I've been talking to you about this and you kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of you hear me out, but you're like, whatever, kind of thing, kind of brush it off. But when we were digging into planning for this episode, you kind of had an epiphany about it, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:44

Yeah, it was just crazy. Uh, like you say, we were planning the episode and I'm sitting on the floor, basically on the rug.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Crying curled up in the fetal position.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

No. Uh and we're going through the bullet points and the topics and how we're gonna how we're gonna put it together without fighting. And remember that we postponed this episode because we needed we didn't want to fight brain capacity to put it together. Uh and as we're going through, uh I realized like, oh wow, I I've been postponing the the way I believe my belief about money, it's it's always spend it today, tomorrow we will be okay.

SPEAKER_03 36:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

I'm always like the money's gonna show up.

SPEAKER_03 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Right, because that's what my mom or my dad was telling me when I was a kid.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

Right.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

And it did show up. And then I'm like, we were whatever we were doing when I was a kid, we were doing shopping, if we were whatever we were doing, you know, I remember the words, oh well tomorrow we're gonna check the next week, or tomorrow. Oh, the things are gonna work out the next week. And I'm sitting on the floor thinking, like, feeling that, feeling it, yeah, as I am navigating life and looking back my entire life from that point, sitting on the floor at that moment, I know that the check will arrive tomorrow or the next week.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

I know. And you were like telling me like I was trying to talk to you, and you're like, shh, wait, wait, wait. Like I'm having like an epiphany right now, and you're like, oh my god, I'm seeing where my whole m stories of money throughout my entire life began. And I was like, Finally.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

That I just felt like I needed to go, and for some people they're gonna think that this is crazy. I I just felt like I need to go into a meditation immediately to break that. Yeah. Instead of just hoping for tomorrow will come. Yeah, just switch it.

SPEAKER_03 37:50

Right. It's happening right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

And I was, you know, doing the work about yeah, things are working out, things are gonna be okay. But inside of me, I was pushing it in the future because that's what actually brings me comfort.

SPEAKER_03 38:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Spend it now, blow it now, it's gonna arrive tomorrow. But that creates such anxiety also.

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Because you're just kind of yeah, it's not a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 38:16

And you're always you're always waiting for the next thing like to come, then like the next check or whatever, and you're like, where is it? Where is it? Where is where's the money coming from?

SPEAKER_00 38:26

And I felt such a kind of freedom this last days or so after we um we went over the episode and so and I'm like thinking differently and feeling differently. I kind of somehow broke that belief because I acknowledged it, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 38:42

I hope so, man. That would be great.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Yeah. So things are working out.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

Tomorrow. Things will be okay tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Unbelievable. And I'm pretty sure a lot of people. Right.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

And maybe that's what every relationship needs.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

As long as there's good communication, it's really hard, Ken. Yeah. Even us with all our willingness, with all the communication that we have, you know, that we respect each other, that we love each other, we love our family. This topic is very, very. It is, it's rough.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

It's rough, but it makes it it does make it easier if you understand where the person is coming from and why, how they're feeling and why they're feeling that way. So the goal isn't about becoming identical, the goal is about understanding what each person brings to the table. The very thing that frustrates you about your partner may actually be the thing that's protecting your future. And once you understand that, you can start asking some questions like, what am I actually scared of? What does money mean to me? What does money mean to my partner? Where did I learn that from? And where did they learn that from? Is this belief still serving me? And what fear is hiding underneath this argument?

SPEAKER_00 40:22

Right. Very good question, Skin, because awareness doesn't solve everything, but it changes the conversation. Definitely. Like it did with us. Right. So we know that you cannot change a money pattern you don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

Right. Communication is super important, but you have to understand what's lying underneath. If you don't know what's lying underneath in order to communicate that, then you're not going to solve the problem. And if there's one thing that we hope that you can take away from this, it's that money is one of the most personal topics in any relationship. Not because it's about numbers, because it's about meaning. It's about the stories we've carried for decades, the fears we've never spoken out loud, the lessons we learned as children, the survival strategies we brought into adulthood. And maybe the biggest realization we've had is this. Neither of us is trying to create conflict, neither of us is wrong. We were both trying to feel safe. We just learned different ways to do it. And maybe that's true in your relationship too. Maybe the argument isn't really about money. Maybe it's about two people carrying old stories into a new life. And maybe understanding those stories is the first step towards rewriting them.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

That's right, Kim and we have here some reflection questions for those out there that are actually going through this kind of money conflict. So, what did money mean in your home growing up? What money belief have you never questioned?

SPEAKER_02 41:54

What fear is hiding underneath your arguments? Are you reacting to today's situation or yesterday's story? What if they're trying to protect themselves in the only way they learned how? If this episode resonated with you or helped you in any way, we'd love for you to share it with someone who needs to hear it. And if you're ready to go deeper, we created something for you. Head over to Ken and Kemp Podcast.com where you can get access to our full library of rebuild guides. These are step-by-step tools designed to help you actually apply what we talk about here. And if you want to connect with us, join our private Facebook community, the Rebuild Room, where we're having real conversations about rebuilding your life. We'll see you in the next episode.