Episode 05 - Depression, Medication, and the Mindset Shift That Changed My Life

Kim: I was looking over some things that I journaled this morning,

and I found a piece in there that I really wanted to share and discuss because I think it's super important and helpful.

Ken: Okay.

Kim: I've realized a lot of the concepts that we speak about are concepts and not everyone is willing to implement.

For example,

I would not have considered even hearing about meditation as a healing modality for my depression when I was in the deepest, darkest parts of my depression.

It's almost like trying to convince a drug addict that being clean and sober and not using drugs is better than being an addict and feeling good with the drugs.

You can't convince someone with your words,

no matter how hard you try.

They have to be ready to make the changes.

They have to be ready to want the results so bad more than they want the drug.

Ken: Right.

Kim: Being depressed can create patterns in the brain that start to feel almost like an addiction.

Our bodies can become conditioned to the stress chemicals and emotional states that we are repeatedly produced.

We create elevated levels of stress hormones like cortisol when we are continuously thinking negative and depressing thoughts. And over time, the brain can become wired into those patterns.

We have to break our bodies out of those conditions,

stress patterns,

and our mind and soul have to want out of that depression more than our brain wants to stay in the familiar pattern.

Ken: So when you were journaling this morning, you were, like, thinking when you were depressed years, years ago?

Kim: Well, I was thinking about what it would have sounded like for me as someone being in the depths of a depression.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: Hearing, like, our podcast and us sitting here discussing,

you know, what's helped us grow and improve and heal.

And I was thinking, if I heard somebody discussing meditation, for example, or visualization or any of the things that we've incorporated into our daily lives,

I would have been like, are you fucking kidding me?

Like, meditation is not going to help me get out of depression.

Ken: Right.

Kim: And while I agree that's not in a lot of cases,

that's not the only answer.

But it is part of the answer,

and it's a huge part of the answer.

Ken: Yeah. Because if you think about it, the depression is actually happening in your brain. Right. And when you're meditating, you're using your brain.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: You know you're going to rewire and trying to rewire through meditation, Right? Yes, of course. That's based on. What kind of technique are you using where you're meditating.

Kim: Yes.

Ken: So I know you wanted to talk about.

Kim: Well, hold on. The. The depression is actually caused because of our thoughts and what a lot of People don't realize is that we have complete control over our thoughts.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: And that's why I say, like, I, I was being a victim of my thoughts and allowing the depression to continue.

And I know that that statement can be kind of controversial and people don't want to hear that. And they'll say like, oh, well, you don't know how bad my depression is.

Well, like, I absolutely know how bad depression is because I had treatment resistant depression for most of my life,

clinical depression.

I realized when we were at the Mind Valley event that I was absolutely being a victim to those thoughts. I was allowing my.

I. I wasn't controlling my thoughts. I was allowing them to just run rampant in my brain and I wasn't controlling them.

And once I understood that I have complete control over the thoughts,

I was on a mission to change those thoughts.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: And it's like,

I picture it like slaying, slaying a dragon. I'm in there, like, I was in there all day, every day in my brain, like when shitty thoughts came up. Sad thoughts, depressed thoughts.

Like,

woe was me.

I was, I was knocking them down and I was challenging them.

Ken: All right, so back then, years ago.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: For the doctors and even today, again, this is just our opinion.

Kim: You know, this is just my experience.

Ken: Yeah. And our experience, because I was basically navigating part of this with you.

Kim: Yes.

Ken: You know, so back then, years ago, when you were younger, the doctor would say, okay, this is a chemical imbalance.

Kim: Correct?

Ken: Right. There's a chemical imbalance.

Kim: Yes.

Ken: And we have a treatment for you.

Right.

And yes, I think some treatments even at some point, I encourage you to, hey,

go back to the pill,

go back to take some medication, you know,

because there is still hope. Right. You take it.

And then. Okay, I'm treating my depression through medication.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: And yeah, it does work somehow. But you knew that was basically putting a band aid on the issue.

Kim: Right.

Ken: When we went to Mindvalley, you realized, wait a minute,

what happened here? You kind of thought, all right, so is it me that is causing the depression? Do I have full control on this depression, on the situations?

Do I have full control of my thoughts?

Kim: Yeah.

And that wasn't just through meditation that I got that realization. It was through some speakers that were there that had other issues. I don't recall what they were, but I think they were more physical issues.

But I gained that knowledge through their stories and what they were saying,


Ken: you were kind of connecting the dots.

Kim: Yeah. And I was like, oh, my God.

I. This has literally been a choice that I've been making my entire life. And mind you, I was, at the time we went there, I was 43.

And I was like, you know, I've been in and out of depression since I was like 15ish years old.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: So I was floored when I came to that realization.

And I remember spent, you know, that weekend was so, so amazing. Like we learned so much stuff and grew from that experience. But I remember being in the hotel room in Miami and I was like,

holy shit!

Like, I can't believe I have allowed myself to be a victim of this story,

that I have this chemical imbalance and that I don't have any control over it. This is just the cards I've been dealt. You know, my,

my grandmother was paranoid schizophrenic, my mother was bipolar, my brother is all sorts of things. And.

Yeah. Um,

and so when I realized that I had, I was super excited. I remember feeling so excited that I had this opportunity to fix it, to change it.

But then I also,

at the same time was really sad that I had allowed this to happen to myself because I,

I just didn't know. I just fed into this story.

Ken: Right.

Kim: And so I allowed myself to kind of like feel sorry for myself for a little bit.

But I, it was like very short lived because I, I knew that I was going to fix it and I knew that I was going to change it. So it was really exciting for me actually.

Ken: Right. Yep. So very interesting. You know, again, like you finally found like, wait a minute. I think I can take control now.

Kim: Yes.

Ken: You know, of my thoughts, my actions, my well being.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: It's not easy. It's not just like, oh, yeah, well, now I know what to do now. No, of course there's a process.

Now let's go deeper into your depression.

Kim: Because one thing I wanted to add before we go down that trail is,

you know, from the note or the journaling that I did this morning,

the thing that I was talking about, you know, that it's the,

the addiction in there and that we get addicted to these kind of chemicals that our body creates and these stress hormones and all that stuff. I just wanted to elaborate that in what I have come to believe to be true for myself is when the doctors were saying like,

oh, you know, it's a chemical imbalance,

I equate it to as those are the chemicals I was creating because I was allowing the thoughts to control my emotions and therefore my body was reacting and creating those chemicals.

And once I understood that I was in control and I started changing those Thoughts just as simply as. Like, when a shitty thought came in, I would flip it. You know, techniques and tools like that.

There's more than that, of course, but so my brain, I feel like, stopped creating those chemicals and those neural pathways, and I was.

I started creating new chemicals and new neural pathways.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: So that, to me, says that I'm not chemically imbalanced anymore.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: You know what I mean? That's my. How I tell myself the story, and that's how I can move forward with it.

Ken: Well, that's how you feel it?

Kim: That's how I feel, yes.

Ken: Are you saying when you were in Miami, you're like, oh, wait a minute.

Kim: Right.

Ken: Wait a minute, what's going on?

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: But now, for whoever is listening right now,

they could think, like, oh, wait a minute. You know, you weren't really depressed, like, after 40, being in Miami. And then all of a sudden you're like, oh, well, I'm not depressed anymore.

Kim: Yeah, no, that's not how the story goes.

Ken: Let's go back to probably early 90s when you.

When you were young. Kim, I know you told me.

I don't have all the details. You told me a while ago that at some point you were younger, you got angry,

and you were depressed, and you were.

They took you to some sort of. I don't know.

Kim: Yeah, I mean, I. I had a couple stints in some mental health facilities for a week each inpatient.

So I wasn't allowed interact. I wasn't allowed to go out, and I wasn't allowed visitors except during visitor hours.

Ken: Okay. And that's when everything kind of started.

Kim: Yeah, that was, I think, the first time that happened. I was probably, like, 18, I believe, around then.

Ken: And at 18, you already. You were depressed. If that happened, if you had that kind of event, you already. Your mind was messed up already.

Kim: Yeah, for sure. I was on and off of medications.

Too many to name. Too many to even remember.

So many different combinations. So many different dosages.

And then you have all sorts of side effects from the medications that you're taking medications to treat the side effects. So it was like all these combinations, and they make you sick, they make you skinny, they make you fat, they make you.

Ken: Oh, I remember. Overweight.

Kim: Yeah, that was all, like, water weight. I gained 60 pounds within months.

Ken: Remember that picture? Because you're like.

Kim: And I don't have, like, the frame to support it. I have a. I have a. Oh, wow.

Ken: Yes.

Kim: So I looked just like. If you could have put a pin in me, I would have popped. That's What I looked like, it just looked awful.

But I had the opposite effect too, where I lost tons of weight. I, you know, had diarrhea stuff, stomach problems,

shaking, tremors,

anxiety, suicidal ideation, got even worse at times,

paranoia,

all the things you can imagine that. Can't that come with antidepressants and all the different kinds of medications.

You name it, I had it. It was terrible. But the bottom line is I was treatment resistant. None of it worked.

Some of them could get me to a plateau, as I like to refer to it as, as like a functioning plateau where I could get out of my own way,

you know, and,

and function. I can put a mask on in the world and function on a day to day basis. But I was not happy and I was still pretty miserable.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: And after,

you know, after that day there, you know, I continued medications here and there, on and off for the next 10 years till around the time I met you. I was what, 29, I wanna say.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: And finally I. Yeah, finally I just had enough. Like I couldn't take it anymore. It was just a miserable existence.

Of course, times of good times and bad times mixed in. And sometimes I felt okay and other times I felt worse, you know, up and down and all around, but it was so bad.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: And around 29, I went for ECT, which is electroconvulsive therapy. And they use it for severe cases for treatment resistant mental illnesses such as, you know, depression, bipolar,

stuff like that. Yeah.

Ken: I couldn't even understand where you were like..

Kim: I know we had first met and if it were anybody else is going on, you, you should have ran.

Ken: You know I was like what?

So I remember that after the treatment you lost your, your memory or the short term memory. I Remember that we went to I think five days after or so we went to, we planned to go to downtown.

Kim: Yeah. You know, in my hometown.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: That I grew up in.

Ken: And to go get dinner and get a drink or whatever. Just kind of, all right, we're done with this ECT crap or whatever.

But you couldn't remember how we got lost, how to go back a road

Kim: that I had traveled like,

you know, a million times in my life. Driven myself. My parents have driven me my whole life up and down this road. And I,

I remember I was very confused.

Ken: Yeah. And I was in the new. In the U.S. i moved to the U.S. in 2009.

So I used to have a GPS in my car,

but I was driving your car.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: That day. And we're just kind of driving like, okay, how the heck are we gonna go back home?

Kim: Yeah. Was really.

Ken: I'm like, I don't. No idea. So, okay, tell me more. More about that.

Kim: So it's. It uses, like, electrical currents, and they.

They send them, like, in a controlled seizure while you're under anesthesia, and they send these electrical currents to your brain.

And there's different ways,

you know. Different.

Ken: Yeah, whatever that was back in 2010 is what, 16 years ago or so?

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: We met in 2009. That happened probably in 2010 or so. Yeah, 16 years ago.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: Or so.

Kim: Yeah. So.

But it was pretty intense. And it's not just one session. It's. I think I. I want to say I went for 10 sessions over the course of a few weeks,

I think. Yeah. A couple weeks. You know, you have to have somebody bring you. You can't. It's.

It. If you read how they used to do it, it's very barbaric.

But the procedures changed drastically over the years.

Yeah,

but it was.
 I got to a point where I just wanted to die, so it was like the memory loss to me, you know, it's only temporary memory loss. I, of course, got my memory back and, you know, all as well. But

Kim: It's a scary. It is kind of scary when you hear about the procedure. It's. It's not an easy procedure, for sure.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: But it was like I wanted to die,

so it was like, what are. What are my options here? Like, just go kill myself or just try this other thing. Maybe this will finally work. Because I was just that miserable.

I could not get out of my own way.

Ken: Yeah. So. But after a while, after some weeks or so, you kind of started seeing some improvements.

Kim: It was like a light switch when it finally kicked in, and I want to say within a month of the treatments, it kicked in and I felt good for the first time in my entire life.

I was like, oh,
 this really is, you know, people can really be happy and people can,

you know, have a good life.

Ken: Yeah. Remember that. You felt better.

Kim: It was better.

Ken: It was better for you. Yeah.

Kim: For. For almost 10 years, I want to say.
it lasted, you know, of course, there were things in between that and, you know, you still get down and whatever. It's not like, oh, you're gonna be just happy. Go lucky forever. And I did not do any of the work I should have been doing during that time, like, internally,

because it, again, is like,

I don't want to say a temporary fix, but I.

But it's. It's Not a deep fix.

You know, it's not. I didn't go within and fix and address the issues that I needed to address within me.

Ken: Okay. Do they recommend to do more. Did they recommend you to do more sessions or.

Kim: They. Yes, they say that you'll probably need maintenance. And I did not do that because it was such an undertaking. And I was just like, no, I got this. I can do this.

Kim: Like, I didn't want to go back for more because I didn't want the memory loss and the interruption in my life and all the things that come with it.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: Um, and then that leads me to. When we moved to Arizona.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: Things in my life that I had not fixed or healed triggered my depression again.

Stressful, you know, situations that I. That's too much to get into right now, but those triggered the depression again, and I fell hard, and that was. You know, by that time, obviously, we're married. We had two kids now. We had our daughter, and I had my son from previous marriage. But I fell hard into a depression, and I think that was the worst you've ever seen me.

And it really was very trying on our marriage.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: Because I was just miserable.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: Couldn't function at all.

Ken: Yeah. Yeah, I remember. I remember. And then I guess I think I was kind of pushing again on the pills.

Kim: Yeah. You kept asking me to go back on the pills, and I kept telling you, like, I'm treatment resistant, like, they don't work for me.

That has been my experience, and I did not want to start going through that again and going through all the side effects again.

Yeah.

Ken: And then that's when we decided to go to another treatment, which is called TMS. Yeah.

Kim: Yeah, that's. It stands for transcranial magnetic stimulation. And I was actually. Didn't know this existed. This was like, what? I don't even know.

Ken: It was before COVID It was before 18.

Kim: I think it was right around Covid.

I think it was a little bit before,

but, Yeah. I didn't even know that this treatment existed.

I was getting ready to go back in for more of the ECT, which I was really dragging my feet on, just, again, because of the undertaking of all of that.

But.

Ken: Oh, yeah, you're right. I Remember that you said that you wanted to, I think I need to go to get ECT again because they think there's, like, a new procedure or so.

And that's when they said to. To do this other one that you're

Kim: talking about, the TMS

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: Yeah. They had suggested It. And yeah,

Ken: For those that don't know how the TMS. Do you have any notes there?

Kim: Yeah, I. It's like they. It's a. It's magnetic pulses to treat medication resistant depression, OCD, anxiety, that kind of thing.

Ken: Yep.

Kim: And what it is is like they. Long story short, they kind of just send like these little magnetic pulses and it's like.

Ken: Do you get like a helmet or.

Kim: I can't remember. I think it's some sort of like helmet they put on or something. And they kind of map it to your head. Exactly. Your brain.

Ken: Where's that thing is going go.

Kim: Yeah. And they. And then they just send this little pulse and it feels like.

I don't know how to explain. It just feels like this little pulse hitting the side of your head and it's repeated.

Ken: Yep.

Kim: And this treatment was better because it was.

It was 30 day or it was like a full month's worth, but it was like Monday through Friday. Every day you go in and it was like. But it's just a 20 minute session.

You can drive yourself, you can leave. There's no downtime, there's no memory loss. You know, they say that there's some side effects of like, just discomfort or like headache, which I didn't really experience.

I was just like, whatever, get it done. Yeah,

that to me is, you know, nothing. Um. And yeah, they just send these little pulses and you just do it five, five days a week, 20 minutes.

Ken: Do you remember how you feel, how you felt before, after, after the treatment?

Kim: I don't remember nothing. No, nothing. No, I just got up and walked out.

Ken: Yeah. No, what I mean, after each session, depression wise.

Kim: Oh. So. Well, back up one second before I answered that I was also. Remember doing the ketamine.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: And I was doing it in conjunction with that because they said that they work well together,

which. The ketamine is a whole other thing. And that's like a.

Yeah, that's like a whole trippy experience.

But so the ketamine is like an injection.

Ken: I remember when I was going with you, it's like in control settings. You like in this small.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: It looks like a small living room.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: They want you to be comfortable.

Kim: Right.

Ken: So I was sitting there next to you.

And then we'll put the iv,

set you up,

tv, music. Again, you just kind of go in this kind of trippy.

Kim: Yeah. Like hallucinogenic trip.

Ken: Go through. Yeah. Hallucinations or. I don't. I don't know. But I was there with you.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: And I remember that I was just kind of seeing you and kind of being sitting next to you, and you were like. Just like, yeah, I feel very relaxed. I feel very.

Kim: Yeah, it. It was. It was weird. And I can't. I don't. You know, I can't pinpoint whether that worked or whether it was the tms, because I was doing them in conjunction with each other.

But supposedly the ketamine has really good results for people that are treatment resistant. Like they were telling. One of the doctors was telling me, like, they. They could have a patient walk in suicidal that day and get one ketamine treatment, and then they are stable,

but at the same day, which was not my experience,

um, I. It was.

It took me. I ended up going for all of the TMS treatments and the ketamine in conjunction.

And every day they would ask you, like, on a scale of 1 to 10,

you know, how do you feel?

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: And every day for. For a full month,

I felt the same. My numbers weren't changing.

It just. Nothing was moving. And the guy who.

The head doctor of this particular clinic saw, you know, he was. He wasn't the one administering the treatments, but he was watching the numbers every day, and he's reviewing my charts every day or whatever,

and he's said,

you know, he saw that my numbers weren't improving, so he offered me, because I think insurance only covers so much because it was newer back then, too. It wasn't,

you know,

so he saw the numbers weren't changing, and he offered,

I think, five free additional sessions. Because he's like, I really think that this is going to work for you, and I really think you need five more.

I believe it was five. I don't know. Don't quote me, but.

So I said, okay, you know, I'm trusting. Trusting what they're telling me. Anyways,

I go for the. The additional sessions. And then it was like finally, after that 5, I started finally feeling better.

Ken: Better.

Kim: Yeah. Back to where I was when I had the ect, which, you know, I said was like a light switch.

It brought me back to that point,

so I was functioning and,

you know, happy again.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: Although, again,

same same thing.

I didn't do any of the inner work or healing that I needed to do. So all of that stuff was still sitting there within me.

Ken: Yep.

Kim: So.

Ken: And that's what you were trying to say at the beginning of the show,

at the beginning of the episode, that.

When you were at the mindvalley event, is that when you were like, whoa,

Right.

Kim: Yeah, like, that's when I had the Epiphany. Yeah, that's when I had the epiphany.

Ken: Yeah, that's when you're exactly so very interesting. And it's gonna really.

For whoever is depressed out there,

it's really hard to understand that it is. This is very, very complicated to really.

To really get it in your head because, again, like,

it needs to come.

It feels like it needs to come to you. So you had the intention back then. When we saw the event,

we both got excited,

we bought the tickets, we went.

Of course. I remember that you were a little iffy about the meditations and stuff. You weren't into any of that?

Kim: No, I've never been religious a day in my life. I don't associate with any religious category. I don't, you know, none of that.

Ken: None of this kind of spiritual.

Kim: None of the spiritual stuff.

Nothing. I didn't think I could meditate because I had such bad. I always have had, like, anxiety.

You know, My anxiety was. I've always had anxiety, but that's never been my main issue. My main issue was always the depression. But I do struggle with anxiety, for sure.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: But, like, I couldn't quiet my brain. I couldn't quiet my thoughts. And I thought that that's what meditation was like, how. I can't. I can't push all my thoughts out. Like, they just are intrusive.

Ken: Yep. They just come. They just creep in and they're just like. This doesn't make any sense.

Uh, I remember that I had a great, great meditation session there. And it was just like eye opening as well. Was just like. This is so powerful.

Kim: Yeah, it does change you with Regan Hyllier

Ken: Amazing. Now, again, I was actually.

Kim: It's funny because I had these thoughts after I did her meditations this morning.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: That I was. Got so excited about talking about today.

Ken: Yeah, I was. I was open.

Yeah, I was open to. You know,

I. Because I used to meditate when I was in college. I didn't really call it meditation. It was just my. I used to play some sort of, like, say, like, music in the background, close my eyes and kind of relax and imagine.

I don't know, visualize.

Kim: Well, that's the thing is we don't realize that we're all meditating every day.

We're in and out of it, you know, and we don't realize that because

Through learning how to meditate, I realized, oh, I been doing this my whole life. I just didn't call it meditation because you think of, like, you know, somebody sitting there like, usa with their fingers and their.

Their legs crossed and like that's how it has to be. And clear your mind. And that's not the only way to do it. There's so many different ways to do it.

Ken: Yeah. Even when you're writing,

if you're a writer.

Yeah. You're like in some sort of a state of meditation. You are connected.

You are connected with.

With the field  or within yourself, with your brain,

the universe, God, whatever,

you know, while you're writing.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: Same way when you're playing music. You're connected to something. You're aligned with something. Right, or when you are acting.

Right. You're like embodying this new actor.

Right. So there's such a alignment when you're doing these activities.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: But when you are depressed,

you are just basically like on a sponge, absorbing everything that just goes to you,

you know, gets thrown at you,

and that you don't even know how to handle it. You know, that you just basically like you let your brain now like cooked all these emotions that were thrown at you and now you're reacting based on those.

That's the way I see it.

You know,

I'm not denying the fact that there is like a chemical imbalance or so. Yeah. Something is up. Something your.

Your environment and the way you are perceiving the world is actually molding your inner world.

Kim: Correct.

Ken: And it's making you spiral out of control.

So when you realized on Mindvalley, like, hey, wait a minute,

I can do something about it, and you took action.

Now you open like a new door to kind of let a new neural pathway.

Exactly.

To kind of rewrite yourself slowly out of that state.

Kim: Correct.

Ken: Now, in the beginning, you didn't even notice that you were doing that. Right. You were like, okay, I'm going to meditate. I guess it still feels weird.

Like I don't want to close my eyes. Like when a lot of meditations programs out there.

Close your eyes,

don't think about anything.

Yeah.

Kim: Right.

Ken: Impossible.

Kim: Right.

Ken: You know, in the previous episode, you asked me, how do I do my meditations or. So I do them intentional.

So I don't let the thoughts creep in. I basically, again,

I go into like a prayer or into being grateful. So I don't let any thoughts kind of creep in. They do creep in. But I try to take myself back into what I'm trying to say to me or to God, the universe, my brain, you know, trying to rewrite it.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: You know, because that's. I'm trying to get into an outcome, trying to reach an outcome. But very, very interesting, Kim, the thing that. That you went through.

Kim: Well, for. For what you're saying, like, that's how you do it. But for me, with, like, the anxiety in my brain and how my thoughts just are zooming and they don't shut up.

Like, something that's really helpful for me as somebody with anxiety is I do guided meditations a lot.

I do both. But guided helps me.

It helps shut my anxiety down a bit more, but easily, I guess,

because I keep, you know, I.

My thoughts keep intruding, but I keep bringing myself back to listening and hearing what the person is saying,

and they're guiding you through and they're telling you to, like, you know, whatever it is. Like, if they're telling you to visualize yourself in a happy state or abundant. Whatever the heck you're doing,

you.

You just follow their voice.

You just bring yourself back to their voice. So it's easy.

Easier when you have something to come back to rather than your own meditation, it's harder to redirect.

Ken: Yep.

Kim: So that's like a.

Ken: Basically, you are more into hypnotherapy.

Kim: Well, I was just talking about guided meditation, but hypnotherapy. Yes. That helped me tremendously. If we want to get on that subject for another day.

Ken: For another day.

Yeah. But it's very, very interesting again,

and I'm glad, Kim, that you were able.

You are able to embrace yourself every single day. Like you wrote this morning about in your journal,

about how you realize the whole thing, how depression actually attacks the brain. And again, it's just your point of view. Yeah, right.

Kim: There's a lot of science behind it, but.

Ken: Yeah, yeah,

but it's your point of view.

Yeah, of course there is science behind it, but, you know, this topic is. So I'm not going to say demonized, but it's just very controversial because, again, the doctor is going to put you on a spectrum.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: You know, so everyone experienced depression in a different way.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: Right. But, yeah, so I'm glad, Kim, that you. That you're way better now. So you haven't been taking medications in a long, long time now.

Kim: No,

but I think that was kind of my point at the beginning of what I was. When I was reading what I wrote from my journal was that when if I were to hear somebody back then, if I were to hear before I had ECT or TMS and I was at the height of my depression,

if I heard somebody say,

oh, yeah, you should, you know, start meditating, I would be like, fuck you.

Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Like, it would have really rage baited me. Like, I would have been pissed off and like, how dare you minimize what I'm feeling and what I'm going through?

And there would have been no possibility that I would have said to myself, yeah, let me give that a try. It just wouldn't have been on my radar.

No way.

So I had to,

you know, get to a place where I was open and willing to giving that a try.

And that was after these treatments that I had when I was feeling okay, you know.

Ken: True.

Kim: And then I had to start working. I started, you know, after Mindvalley the event,

I started digging in, like, at a rapid pace. Just any information I could find on what other people knew, how to fix this, how other people have fixed this,

the science behind it. Because when I. When I understand that there's science that makes more sense to me because I've never been a religious person.

Um,

so, like, the science behind meditation and all the health benefits that you can get from it physically, mentally,

that resonated with me much more.

But again, I. I had to be at a place where I would have been open to it.

Ken: Right.

Kim: And once I was open to it, then I was able to put in the work. And now,

you know, I don't ever see a world in which I can go back to that,

to. To depression. And I'm not saying that I'll never get sad and go through things and have down times, because of course I do, though. Those are natural human feelings.

Ken: And we're not saying either like, oh, stop taking medication and oh, God, no. And go. And now go meditate. You'll be okay. No, no, again, it's. There is a process.

Kim: It was a process. I was on medication in conjunction with the tms. I didn't say that, but I was on medication with it. And after,

you know, I had this epiphany and this eye opening epiphany event,

and I started putting in the work.

After that, I don't remember whether maybe a year after or six months after, maybe I started weaning myself with the help of my doctor,

I started weaning myself off of my medication because I was feeling so good and I just didn't need it anymore as long as I continued to do the inner work.

Yeah, and when I say inner work,

the inner work would be the meditation,

the hypnotherapy,

the self hypnotherapy. By the way, I didn't go and have, you know, these big expensive hypnotherapy sessions. I did it all online. They can be expensive.

I did a lot of healing work. I read a lot of books about healing and how to release things that I didn't even know were blocking me from healing. Things from my childhood that,

you know, if we want to get into the woo woo energy part of it, which I won't dig into too much here, but when an event happens to you and you get over it.

In quotes,

when you get over it,

if you didn't process that event, that trauma, that whatever it is,

that energy stays trapped in your body.

Ken: Yep.

Kim: And that energy,

you're just like pushing it down.

And in order to really process it, you have to process the energy and let it go.

Which is one of my favorite books right here, Letting Go by David Hawkins.

Amazing book for anybody that wants to work on releasing pent up negative energy from traumatic experiences, life experiences, anything.

And you know, you hear people say, well, like, Kim, that happened to you when you were, you know, and I'm not even talking about big traumatic things, but they were traumatic to me.

Everybody has a form of trauma in their life. Everybody.

And you know, and they'll be like, well, Kim, that happened when you were like 5 or 10 or 20 or whatever, whatever the case may be, it doesn't matter. I never processed that energy.

And it remains within your body.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: It's just, that's. That's nature and that's how it works. So without getting into details.

Ken: Okay, I see. So you feel like, all right, so you need to do some sort of a healing.

So for what I'm gathering here from your experience and for what we've been living together, for what I'm seeing all these years with you.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: Is basically,

you have to make a choice. You have to acknowledge, okay, I'm depressed. Right.

I do want to change.

You have to acknowledge that you have the power somehow to fix it.

You have the power to fix it within choosing that you're going to. You're going to get better.

Kim: Right.

Ken: Right. So one of them would be,

like you said, okay,

I'm gonna read some books.

Right. To kind of help you navigate through what you're going through.

You would do some meditation as well.

Right. Guided meditation in order to really kind of stop the thoughts creeping in,

to keep you centered and focus on the meditation session or so.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: And kind of really trying to. When every time a negative thought creeps in, try to kind of switch it right away.

Kim: Yes.

Ken: You know, kind of.

Kim: That one's huge too.

Ken: Yeah. For me, the way that it Works when I get into this kind of.

Yeah. Bad mood or negative thoughts, I just kind of put music on, kind of try to, you know,

Redirect.

Redirect. Yeah, the energy, you know, so otherwise you're just going to,

you know, so if you're more aware of your feelings that you,

you know, you notice that after again,

at MindValley.

And you kind of know, okay, I want to try to have more control.

When you started buying a lot of books.

When I get this book, I want to read. And now you're kind of basically getting into reading and kind of learning more about, you know, what's.

How you're going to change your life and how you're going to actually feel better and not feeling sad about yourself.

Kim: Right.

Ken: So healing is a huge part of.

Kim: Was a huge part of it. And I'm not going to glaze over that lightly because people don't want to do that work.

It sucks.

It's terrible.

It was awful. I spent the last two years in and out of it because it. It's. It's consuming.

Ken: You know, for a lot of people, the healing portion and the meditation, those are the tough ones.

Kim: Yep.

Ken: Those are very, very hard. Because even we have friends that if we talk about meditation, they're gonna look at you. What?

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: Okay. I can meditate. Good.

Kim: Great.

Ken: Awesome. Move on.

Kim: Right.

Ken: Life is hard.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: Life is not fair.

Kim: Right.

Ken: I'm still overweight. I'm still depressed.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: You know, but now it's just like a. Hey, all right. It is true.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: But guess what? You're started just doing some changes in your life. Yeah. So same with the healing. Like, now you're not feeling as a victim anymore.

Kim: Right.

Ken: When you acknowledge it. And hey, you know what? That's not me. That doesn't define me.

Kim: And I don't. Yeah. I don't choose to identify with that anymore.

I'm not embodying that diagnosis anymore or that lifestyle or mindset. I'm. I refuse to. And that's not me anymore.

Ken: And it's just that we get so upset about what kind of hurt us in the past, and it's just basically, you're forgiving yourself.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: You're not forgiving whoever did you wrong, actually.

Kim: Well,

you.

There is. There is an element to forgiving the person.

It doesn't mean you have to,

you know,

physically or, you know, have a conversation with the person and say, hey, I forgive you. But you do have to.

You do have to have some forgiveness towards that person.

And,

you know, I don't want to use any Specific examples, because it's something that, you know, what I've been through in the past two years. But you have to come to a place where you're, like,

understanding of what that person's experience was and what may have led to them,

you know, doing whatever they did.

So, for example,

let's say, you know, somebody hurt you in some way. I. I don't know. Like a.

Ken: Yes. A family member did something very.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: Messed up. And you're like, really?

Kim: Right.

You have to, like, really think about the perspective of that person. Well, like, let's say it was your sister or your brother. I don't know. And you have to, like, think about that person and be like, okay, well,

I already know that that person has, you know, problems of their own. I already know what they're going through. I. I know what they've been through. Maybe they were adopted or they have attachment issues or whatever it is, but you have to give them grace and just be like, they're only human.

They're not, you know, they weren't intentionally doing this to harm me. And some cases, you know, not all. You have to find an angle. Whatever. An angle, whatever that looks like.

But they're just going based off their own experiences, and they're reacting or treating you that way or whatever because of what they have going on in their life. It's not a reflection of you.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: And there's a whole host of things that go into it that is a whole other rabbit hole. Not for this episode today. But the bottom line is the healing needs to be done.

Otherwise it will continue to rear its head forever.

You will keep experiencing similar scenarios. Similar stories in your life will continue to. They will repeat throughout your life until you learn your lesson, until you heal, until you understand why this is happening.

Right.

Ken: So this is. Yeah. This concept is kind of really hard to. Really. For a lot of people, it's a

Kim: hard concept to grasp.

Ken: Yeah. Because we, back then, we didn't like. Oh, come on. Yeah, I remember that. I was.

I think a year ago or so, I was doing, like, a long meditation.

It was by.. by sessions, and I skipped the healing portion of it.

Kim: Oh, I know. Ken I know you

Ken: what the heck am I going to heal here?

Ken: Even though with all my beliefs and all my, you know, my willing

Kim: You think you're immune to the healing, and that is not the case.

Ken: Healing what?. What the heck am I healing?

Kim: You have so much to heal

Ken: I know. We all do. And. And it's important to actually go there, you know, go.

Then again, this will be for another episode you know, you have to go, even when you're like a child,

you know, there's some sort of inner child

Kim: work that I had to do also.

Ken: There's one that is very powerful.

You know, really quick just to kind of.

There's one that, that you basically close your eyes and then you go deep into when you were little.

Kim: Yeah, I've done a million of them.

Ken: You go let's say to your house.

Kim: That's the inner child work.

Ken: And you see yourself let's say at 7 and if maybe you were get beaten by your dad, your uncle or whatever the case might be something traumatic,

you know, and then you're standing, seeing that kid,

which is you.

And then you're going to basically, basically grab that kid by the hand and rescue him, save him.

And that will freaking break you into a thousand pieces if you really go deep into,

into scenarios, episodes to kind of get you out of there.

Kim: That's what I'm saying. It's a very painful process, but it's necessary.

Ken: But you know, now. Yeah,

you're talking about it, you're talking about the process. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Sounds kind of like a. interesting exercise. But when you are into it, when you close your eyes and you put intention to go back there, it's awful.

And relive everything,

it's awful. It's gonna break you. It's gonna really.

Kim: That's what I am saying. Like,

you know, like, you know you're gonna have like this roller coaster like throughout your life. Because I'm not gonna say I'm healed, I'm not healed. I'm in the process of healing things from my life.

But it's a life long process.

The things that I've been working on are just things that have come up for me at this time. That doesn't mean there's still not a hundred other things buried in, within me.

But those things that came up, it took me a good year or more to work through because it was a big thing and I had to do all that. I had to go back to those situations within my mind and like you said, rescue the child or hold its hand or tell tell, tell her it's going to be okay. Everything's going to work out and get down to the level of a child and you know, like I had to do all that work.

Ken: The child and, or even the young adult.

Kim: Yeah, whatever. Yeah, whatever.

Ken: Teens.

Kim: Yeah.

Ken: Or your early 20s.

Kim: Yeah, they, they call it inner child work because they say like most of your beliefs and you know, things happen when you're I forget like 7 to 14. I don't, I don't remember 7 to 12, something like that.

But. So that's why they call it inner child work, because that's when your beliefs are being formed.

So a lot of it was going back to those moments where you heard,

you know, somebody close tell you something, and that was a belief that you formed around that.

Ken: Right.

Kim: And so, like, you know, whether it was like you're. You're not good enough, even though they didn't say you're not good enough, it could have been.

Ken: They.

Kim: They said something that made you feel like you're not good enough.

So you have to go back to that and kind of eradicate that belief.

And I know we don't have time today to get into it. We. We can get into. On the next episode when we talk about. I know we want to talk about the Silva seminar that we just got back from also.

That was life changing for us.

But the,

the person who ran the Silva Method seminar for us, her name was Divine Grace.

She said it herself. She's like, she told the whole class, like,

there's an element of healing that needs to be done in order to open up space to allow the good in.

Ken: Yep.

Kim: She said it way more eloquently than I just did. I probably butchered her words. But the point is we have to, we have to open up that space and we have to clear those blocks in order to level up.

And that's what I want to do here is I want to continue leveling up. So.

Ken: And even for. For us, Kim, to talk about this topic.

I remember that you didn't like to talk about this topic.

You didn't like to go kind of deep,

you know, into the topic. Because again, there is always some sort of resistance and, or some sort of like,

I don't know, it's like a weird feeling, right?

Kim: Well, I don't like to ruminate in it. And you mean like now, like.

Ken: Yeah. Or like way back then, you didn't like to talk about. You know, I don't.

Kim: I. I actually love talking about this topic. It. It lights me up because.

Because now I know how to solve it. So what lights me up is being able to help other people solve it for themselves as well. So this was like a really easy episode for me.

That gots me, gets me really excited because I feel like. So I know people will resonate with what I'm saying. I know that they can benefit and change their freaking lives from.

From what I'm saying and from my Experience.

Ken: There is hope on there.

Kim: There is hope out there for sure. A hundred percent. No matter how far gone you think you are,

if you're willing to put in the work,

this work will move the needle.

Ken: Right.

Kim: So that's why I get so excited about this topic. And,

yeah, I do feel resistance when I talk about it. I have felt resistance when I talk about it because I. I don't like to ruminate in these feelings anymore. And it does bring me back to that space.

Ken: Of course. 

However, now I'm.

I feel like I'm. I'm okay with it. I'm. I'm so far ahead of the game now from where I was.

Ken: Yeah.

Kim: That I'm. I'm good. I'm good.

Ken: Yeah. And thank you for doing that again. I know a lot of people needs to hear this.

There is a way to. To kind of, you know, overcome this depression or so..

Kim: I'm happy to help people with this topic because I'm so passionate about it, because I struggled for so long and wasted so many years of my life figuring this out.

So now that I kind of have the formula, if you will,

I love. I'm more than willing to help anybody through this as well. So I really hope that,

you know, my story resonates with people,

and I want to just tell you that there is definitely hope for you. No matter how far gone you think or believe that you are, you can do this work.

And with future episodes, I hope to get more into this work and discuss how you two can get to a place that's right. Where you love life.

Ken: That's right.

Kim: Like we do.

Ken: That's right. Kim, thank you very much for sharing this nice story with us.

Kim: Yeah, you're very welcome.

Ken: All right, we'll see you then.

Kim: Bye.

Ken: Bye.

Kim: Bye.

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